DR GODKNOWS BOLADEI IGALI is a distinguished Nigerian diplomat, public servant, author, and the National Chairman of the Pan-Niger Delta Forum (PANDEF). He served as Nigeria’s Ambassador to Scandinavian countries (including Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Finland) under President Umaru Musa Yar’Adua. He also served as the Special Adviser to President Umaru Musa Yar’Adua on the Niger Delta. A former Secretary to the Bayelsa State Government, Igali also served as a two-time Federal Permanent Secretary at the Ministry of Water Resources and the Ministry of Power under President Goodluck Ebele Jonathan. In this interview, Igali, spoke on national issues like the forged PFIPC, Stephen Oronsaye report, call for return to regionalisation, South South’s position in the 2027 general elections, and many more. Excerpts…
What’s your view on the whole issue surrounding forging of documents to create an agency of government?
People decide to carry out a criminal activity by forging documents, forging laws that don’t exist. Because agencies of government, most times, are established by law, and it’s troubleshooting. It may not always be established by law; it could be when the Office of Data Service does their diagnostic studies — those offices can be created. And within ministries, they can now project offices.
But where a person goes to forge documents showing that they see an enabling law backing an extra-ministerial department or an agency, then that’s a criminal activity. But we also have cases where there are special project offices.
The problem is that Nigerians like titles, they like titles, and then you create an office to, say, carry out this activity. Because maybe just a coordinator of an office, head of an office, and the person arrogates to himself the title of being a director general — which are nomenclatures for those heads of agencies. Those are those who are appointed by the process. But then when people do that, you have to be mindful.
If you’re a permanent secretary, I think so. If we carry out maybe a more detailed investigation, some of the yellow flags, or maybe even red flags, that are being raised may not really be the situation. Because I read the most recent one of another agency being discovered as a fake, and by my own assessment, it may not really be so, because it is clear from one of the letters that it is a project office. And project offices exist. So, but it’s all a learning curve, because we’ll have to improve on the reporting system.
So, if a ministry creates a project office, there should be somewhere where they report to, to say, “Okay, this office is in existence.” I’ll give an example. One of the ministries, quite a big ministry, which I was the Permanent Secretary, the Minister, a very intellectual person, wanted us to create a special office to handle a national economic matter, which was important. When he called me, and introduced the Coordinator, the question I asked was, “Have you discussed it with the President?” And he said, “Oh, yes, we discussed,” and it’s agreeable. I said, “Okay, Sir.” So, he just put a short note to me, and we’ll see what we can do. We did that. A few weeks later, because permanent secretaries are extremely busy, you won’t leave your office. So, we’re monitoring all what you’re doing — particularly if you’re a big ministry. And only to discover that the coordinator was parading himself as a director general of an office.
And so, I brought that to the attention of the Minister. I said, “Call this person, the person you introduced to me. The person is parading as the Director General. The person is not even a director. He’s just helping us coordinate this office which we created for this specific purpose.” There are task forces, so many, carrying out different activities.
So, the Presidential Foreign Intervention Promotion Council (PFIPC), for instance, is more like an office, not an agency?
That’s a different thing altogether. Because from the narrative we’ve heard and available information, there were forgeries. Documents were forged, laws were forged, and they’re put into the system. These things happen all over the world. If you follow cases in the United States, or even in the UK, people create official offices for either helping people to get visas to go to their countries, special category of visas, or to benefit from the healthcare system of those countries, and so on. And they say they are consultants or they are parastatals of government departments.
So, these things, those ones, are specific cases of criminal intent, criminal activities. It’s different from when a structure is created to carry out activities. Then the person arrogates. In fact, in the case I’m talking about, the person even left the office outside to rent a big office outside, and people were going there to carry out activities until we saw it, and shut it down.
So, these things happen from time to time. But it’s the process of state building. It’s continuous learning. So, what needs to be done in these cases, like now we know. And if one may suggest, we have a lot of very senior civil servants. We have, at least, about 200, going to about 300 retired permanent secretaries at the federal level, including some heads of service. It would have been to constitute a team that can undertake a diagnostic review of different government agencies.
If we go now, ministry by ministry, special project offices, you will see that a lot of offices exist that carry out projects, programmes, and activities of the government. So, it’s for efficiency purposes that those ones exist. But where there are forgeries, and people give titles to themselves — like I said, Nigerians like titles, it’s a problem.
So, it’s possible that most of these offices would have a number of project offices in their MDAs. They are not necessarily fake?
No, no. You know, they’ve been created. That’s why I sympathise with them, and I must say so. I sympathise with the permanent secretaries, three of them, whose names have been mentioned, that are now like the scapegoats. If we go deeper, it may not be. And we can, actually, as a country, take this platform, maybe advise that the government can set up a proper diagnostic team.
ICPC (Independent Corrupt Practices and Other Related Offences Commission) is focused, specialised, and there is an administrative nuance aspect that may not occur to them. And if a former Head of Service (HoS), one of these very senior permanent secretaries, is put in charge, you put people from security, different arms, they can look at different agencies. And not all of them. There may be some that are actually fake, but it may not be. And the permanent secretaries, well, it’s suspension. It’s not a sacking — they are to be suspended, but the embarrassment and what has happened.
There may be a need to have something more holistic in that manner, not on ad hoc basis, not knee-jack purposes. That will expose a lot of work. And that takes us back to the (Stephen) Oronsaye report. With that report, which is still on the shelves. If the Oronsaye report, which was very comprehensive by our former boss, if it was implemented by the governments that came after that report, we would have been able to cross-check these things better.
Didn’t President Bola Tinubu direct the Secretary to the Government of the Federation (SGF), Senator George Akume, to review the report?
Well, I think, to be honest, I think after that, we’ve even had more agencies being created after. Well, no, there’s nothing bad with creating agencies when necessary. But I think this has given more credence to the fact that we should revisit the Oronsaye report as a country. Because it was properly constituted. There were people — even from the private sector — that were part of that effort. And it was dispassionate. It was very professional, and the idea was to make sure that we don’t have unnecessary overlaps in the system. So, the government may have to look at it again. But sometimes, government activities get those in power very busy.
And I don’t think there’s — it’s like one would say that the spirit is willing, but the body is weak. Maybe, it’s that kind of scenario. And maybe, the government should look at it again. And I recommend, we have a platform of retired permanent secretaries, known as the Council of Retired Federal Permanent Secretaries, headed by Yayale Ahmed, who’s the President.
And this matter has been discussed widely. And if I look at it, the opinion appears to be the need to have a more thorough work — looking at different ministries, different agencies, and so on — to see if there are alignments that we need to make, and to see if there are some that might have even outlived their usefulness, and to be able to align them. And then, like I said, there’s now a need for us to look at the reporting mechanism. Because if myself and my minister—when a minister goes to the President, and has a conversation with the President, and he comes back and says, “Oh, I’ve spoken with the President, and this is what we should do,” as a Permanent Secretary, you don’t go and say, “Minister, can you show me when the President…” So, you carry out what the Minister has said in good faith, and there may be a need to have a more centralised reporting system. So, for our successors who are there, when these things happen, maybe there should be a central pool where people know that the Ministry of Finance, for example, has created a special office to do this. And there’s a coordinator.
Perhaps the Executive Council of Defenders, the Federal Executive Council (FEC), at a recent meeting, set up a committee that is going to review these more holistically?
Exactly.
And I’m sure, most probably, they should also get in touch with your organisation?
Well, that’s an organisation. It’s a very respectable organisation of some of the most distinguished Nigerians. And I think people will be ready to serve. You know, the mindset of the average civil servant, particularly when he rises high to become a permanent secretary. You are used to serving any government in power. So, people will be ready to serve, and put their best input.
Let’s look at another issue. You’ve been involved in nation-building. You are leading the Niger Delta Forum, and all of that. And recently, the debate on restructuring — it’s not recent, it’s still ongoing.
People keep talking about it, and all of that. And somehow, it’s yielding fruits. Because it is this restructuring that has led to the state police we’re talking about today. So, it may come very slowly, but talking about it over and over and over would definitely get to some ears.
Just recently, there was a call for, maybe, a return to regionalisation, where 17 autonomous regions came and had a meeting. Can you put us through that? Because the younger Nigerians may not understand.
Well, I was invited as one of the keynote speakers, and I did present an address at a conference that was organised by a body that calls itself Concerned Citizens Assembly, or the RIBAD Group. Well, I think the word ‘restructuring’ became notorious, because people thought restructuring was tantamount to disruption of the country. But that’s not (the situation). What has happened in Nigeria is a major constitutional aberration.
You see, nations are built—most nations of the world are built by a consensus of the dominant elite on “How do we take this country forward? How do we build this country?” That’s like a broken record. Because I’ve said it whenever I have the opportunity to speak on such matters. Nigeria is an intentional country. That is, Nigeria was created intentionally by the founding fathers of this country. I’m a historian, and sometimes, even in 2014, the theme of the Conference of Historical Society of Nigeria, which is still alive, some of the top leading historians post-independence—had as a theme this house that (Lord Frederick) Lugard built, in celebration of the centenary of Nigeria.
Centenary of Nigeria?
Now, so the idea, sometimes, is strongly that Lugard built this house. No. This house was built by Nnamdi Azikiwe, by Obafemi Awolowo, by Sir Ahmadu Bello, Tafawa Balewa, Anthony Enahoro, people of that group, that generation of people. Look, in 1947, India and Pakistan negotiated with the British for about almost 40 years for independence. Independence was granted to them in 1947 (on August 15).
There were three main lawyers. (Jawaharlal) Nehru was the leader. Not (Mahatma) Gandhi. Then Nehru on the Indian side, and Muhammad Ali Jinnah on the Pakistani side. All of them were friends, classmates. Nehru and Jinnah were in law school together in the UK. But at the point of independence, Jinnah said, “Look, we don’t want to go together with these Hindu people. We want a state that is predominantly Islamic.”
Islamic?
Yeah. And the British said, “Is that what you want? Let’s give it to you.” And they separated them, Pakistan and India.
In the case of Nigeria, in 1946, we had the Lyttleton Constitution (of 1954). After that, they said it’s not good enough. There was not enough consultation. Nnamdi Azikiwe used the word “obnoxious.” It’s an obnoxious constitution.
So, the next governor after Richards, in 1951. No, no, Macpherson in 1950, did a consultation from village to village, and province to province. After which, it went to the region by region. And they called a conference in London in 1950, where all Nigerian political leaders and traditional rulers met and deliberated.
They asked them, “You’ve seen the example of India and Pakistan. Is that what you want? What do you want?” And at that conference, they resolved that, “No, we want a country, a strong country, large, strong country, that our differences — we recognise them, but we work out a political formula where we can live together.” That formed the basis of the Macpherson Constitution, 1951. They handled it. They said, “Macpherson Constitution is not impressive enough.”
Oliver Lyttelton, who was the colonial secretary, called everybody to London. They went to London, and came up with the Lyttelton Constitution in 1954. Let me stop there.
In that constitution, they agreed that Nigeria should be a federal system, a federation where we can allow the regions to have a greater say, and compete among themselves. So, while Tortilla’s Constitution brought regionalism. It was actually Lyttelton that brought federalism.
Federalism?
Yeah. Came with fiscal federalism — to keep 50 per cent of what you produce. Then 50 per cent goes to the federation, 30 per cent, thereof, is shared as a distributive pool.
Distributive pool?
Yeah. Twenty per cent remains for the Federal Government. This system led to competition — healthy competition among the regions. And the regions competed very well. Cocoa — Nigeria was number one (in Africa), number two in the world cocoa production. And groundnuts — the groundnut pyramids were everywhere. I travel a lot. I go from Kano to Azare, from Azare to Amuari. You don’t see any pyramids anywhere again.
In the East, we had palm oil and palm kernels. And today, we have gone to Indonesia, Malaysia — all these countries took from us. Today, we are importing from them.
So, what I’m saying, in 1966, this system that worked well became disrupted. And we started to operate a quasi, right now, almost a unitary system. So, when people talk of restructuring, they are saying, “Let us go back to a system where that level of healthy competition was.”
But in those regions, it appeared the minorities, including where you come from, their rights were not allowed?
It was — I was only a speaker at the conference. The conveners of the conference said they had a process, and they did. They went around the whole country, and spoke with people. I don’t think they’ve said this is conclusive. What they’ve said is that this is the beginning of dialogue among different parts of the country.
We heard that the Attorney General was represented.
Yes, he was represented.
Did you think he spoke up? The Attorney General?
Yes.
Does this project have the tactic support of the government?
No, I don’t think so. No, the Attorney — no, no, not at all. The Attorney General was consistent with his work. He had to send somebody to represent him, to listen to what people are saying. So, if finally, they come to the government, they are able to monitor the conversation.
And it’s consistent with their mandate. So, I’ll give you an example. One or two groups, from what I saw there, because I presented my paper, stayed for that, then left. But they continued for two other days. Now, some people came and said, “Look, we want this to happen. We are not happy where you want us to be, if the regions are actually to come back to the country.” And it’s debated and debated. Eventually, they were convinced. That’s what we have on the screen now.
But I’ll give you a typical example. The Bagui people, who are the aboriginal people of their city, and they are in about six or seven other states.
Six states?
Yes. And they were not properly — they were put in the wrong place. And somebody very prominent from them came and presented their case, and finally, they sorted them out. And there were a few other cases like that.
Some people were not there because they were not happy with what was done.
And I said, “No, you should have come there to debate and discuss with them, and see how you can understand.”
And listen, Dr Nnamdi Azikiwe said something after the military coup in 1966. He said he was shocked because throughout the debate for independence, neither himself nor Alhaji Tafawa Balewa nor Sir Ahmadu Bello, Chief Obafemi Awolowo shouted at each other. That they endured with each other in dialogue, in negotiations. Sometimes it was tense. They would take a tea break, and come back.
But I now see that there was even violence of assassinating people. So, we must be ready as a country to talk. And it is for us — we are doing it for ourselves. We are doing it for our children and our grandchildren. So, they don’t have to go back to it.
Switzerland has 26 cantons (member states). And in 1848, they came up with a system to say, “Okay, 26 cantons. At any time, let us have seven of the cantons running the Federal Government.”
The presidents are the attorney generals. But each president can only be there for one year. And it has worked for them. It worked for them for all this period.
So, it’s for us to have a dialogue, a conversation. So, if these people have initiated this, it’s not out of place. It’s not wrong. Because civil society must always play a role for us to be able to build a country. And we must enjoy each other in conversation and dialogue.
So, as a leader of the Niger Delta, you were at that conference and all of that?
Yes.
And then what would you say should be the agenda or the focus of the Niger Delta in the 2027 general elections? I know the South South Peoples Assembly (SSPA) also met with the Middle Belt.
No, no. We are the people meeting the Middle Belt.
And the take is that the presidency should remain in the South?
Well, there are conversations around that. There are conversations around that. But for us in the South South, our interest, critically, is the fact that we have some legacy issues. And we are watching. As a people, we are watching. And let the political actors be mindful that we are watching. Because we have some entrenched issues.
For example, the issue of our environment. This year makes it 70 years that oil has been produced, and our environment is totally disappointing. So, we’ve been clamouring for remediation of the environment, and we are waiting to see the plan, which work is ongoing in Ogoni. But Ogoni is just a fraction of the area. And then there is even within Rivers State. Ogoni is just one little part. So, it’s not the work going on in Ogoni. We think that there should be pilot programmes in all the states that have so damaged the environment.
And UNEP, United Nations Environmental Programme, has said this could take even as much as about 50 to 100 years to remediate, to correct back to what it was before oil production. We are looking at — we want to hear what people want to say.
There are other issues. The oil industry, oil and gas, and those communities. The situation where — look, Nigeria can be a net exporter of finished products. Look at what the Dangote Refinery has done for the country. It has cut off that dependence on foreign oil producers. We are now able to produce, and Dangote is already selling the aviation fuel to the United States of America, which is the most sophisticated market in the world. So, if we have more refineries working in the Niger Delta, including modular refineries, it’s on the long run to help all of the country.
And finally, let me not take too many things like a shopping list. Look, it is the most difficult thing to understand, that the place that produces the wealth of the country, we cannot commit among ourselves. The roads are in a terrible state. When I listen to the Minister of Works sometimes, I feel like breaking my television. Because I move around every time. I have to come in from Potiskun to be able to have this conversation with you. And the roads are not there. They are not. So, it’s not. To a city somewhere in Abuja, and say, “We are fixed.” Even the so-called East West Road.
The East West?
Yes. It’s not in order. You can’t go from Sapele to Warri that used to take us 40, 45 minutes. Today, it takes about three hours. From Sapele to Benin of one hour now takes about three or four hours.
And the other day, just last week, we saw people demonstrating that the road from Asaba to Benin is so bad, and people came out demonstrating. So, the roads — and this is where the money comes from — it is the height of injustice. So, it’s not as if we’re asking for too much. We are not asking for more than we should have. We are just saying, “Be fair. Be equitable. Be just. Be fair to us as a people.”
So, our people are watching. Our people are watching. It’s not going to be a bandwagon where we’ll be spoken on, everybody will just jump like kangaroos. No. People are now wiser. They are reasoning. They are wiser. The political bandwidth is now wider for people to reason and participate.
So, will PANDEF engage all the 19 presidential candidates?
Well, we are talking to some people, but we are also listening. It will not be possible to talk to everybody, but we are listening to what people are saying. And we are telling our people, “Don’t be deceived. Judge people properly.”